PG: Gary Payton
SG: Paul Pierce
SF: Scottie Pippen
PF: Tim Duncan
C: Shaquille O'Neil
BN: Dikembe Mutombo, C
BN: Dennis Johnson, PG
BN: Sidney Moncrief, SG
BN: Chris Webber, PF
BN: Chris Mullen, SF
BN: Rasheed Wallace, PF
BN: Ron Artest, SF
vs.
KC's All ERA Team
PG: Jason Kidd
SG: Michael Jordan
SF: LeBron James
PF: Alonzo Mourning
C: David Robinson
BN: Dirk Nowitzki, PF
BN: James Worthy, SF
BN: Robert Parish, C
BN: Glen Rice, SG
BN: Mark Jackson, PG
BN: Vince Carter, SF
BN: Glenn Robinson, SF
We'll have voting end at Wednesday 11:59pm Arizona Time
Gary Payton vs. Jason Kidd
Gary Payton is known for his defense, but Jason Kidd is just as good at defense if not better. They’re both superb defenders as Payton averaged a career 1.8 spg, and Kidd averaged 2.0 spg. One advantage Kidd has over Payton as a defender is that he’s much heavier than Payton so he can use his body size to guard bigger players. As a play-maker though, I’d give the advantage to Jason Kidd. Compare the assist averages:
Jason Kidd: 9.2 assists per game
Gary Payton: 6.7 assists per game
Jason Kidd was always a great playmaker, whether it was pushing the pace of the game, or slowing it down, fast breaks, when to shoot and when to pass. He always had great decision-making skills, while you look at Gary Payton, and he wasn’t necessarily always the best playmaker and didn’t have the vision that Jason Kidd necessarily had. And as an all around player, Kidd just had the advantage of Payton because he does EVERYTHING. He hustles, he shoots, passes and rebounds. These are the career averages for their rebounding:
Jason Kidd: 6.7 rebounds per game
Gary Payton: 3.9 rebounds per game
Both guards are outstanding but Kidd makes all the players around him much better while Payton sometimes looked to just take over himself instead.
Michael Jordan vs. Paul Pierce
Ask yourself who is better in this one? Not only is MJ better, but he would absolutely DESTROY paul pierce on both ends. Paul Pierce has never once made any defensive nba team and he’s only been on the nba THIRD-team once in his career, yet he has labeled himself the best player in the NBA. Michael Jordans resume: 6 time nba champion, 5 time nba MVP, 14 time nba All-star, 6 time NBA Finals MVP, defensive player of the year, 10 time nba 1st team, 9 time nba defensive 1st team, 3 time all-star mvp, greatest player to ever play
LeBron James vs. Scottie Pippen
Scottie Pippen is one of the best defenders of all time but could he stop LeBron James? LeBron James plays everywhere on the court and LeBron’s body size would be very difficult for Scottie to defend. His length isn’t good enough to stop LBJ as LBJ is just way too strong and powerful. LeBron is much better than Scottie offensively (this coming from a Bulls fan) and his defense got LeBron runner up in defensive player of the year this year. His size and athleticism would be able to really take out any part of Scottie’s offensive game.
Alonzo Mourning vs. Tim Duncan
A matchup of the defensive specialists. Alonzo Mourning’s resume consists of: 2x defensive player of the year, 2x all nba defensive team, 7 time all star, all nba first team. But I won’t really go into this one because I’m not going to lie, Duncan is obviously better.
David Robinson vs. Shaquille O’Neal
Two of the best centers to ever play basketball. It’s unfortunate we weren’t able to see these two duke it out in their primes. But heres a look at their stats:
David Robinson: 21.1 points per game, 10.7 rebounds per game, 3.0 blocks per game, and 2.5 assists per game
Shaquille O’Neal: 24.7 points per game, 11.2 rebounds per game, 2.4 blocks per game, and 2.6 assists per game
In both these players’ era’s, they were considered the top centers. Although Shaquille O’Neal’s size is much better, David Robinson was much more skilled on the defensive end. In his first six NBA seasons he won Rookie of the Year, NBA MVP and Defensive Player of the Year awards, in addition to a rebounding title, a scoring crown, six All-Star bids, three selections to the All-NBA First Team and three selections to the NBA All-Defensive First Team.
Bench:
Mark Jackson- 2nd in all time in assists in the NBA. Glen Rice- 3 time all-star, one of the best pinpoint shooters of all time. Dirk Nowitzki- spreads the offense, one of the best shooting big men of all time. James Worthy, Vince Carter, Glenn Robinson >>> Chris Mullen, Ron Artest Worthy aka Big Game James was a winner. He won 3 nba championships (having one NBA Finals MVP) and was one of the best post-season players ever with career postseason averages of 21.1 points and 5.2 rebounds per game. Robert Parish: Basketball Hall of Fame (2003); NBA champion (1981, '84, '86, '97); All-NBA Second Team (1982); All-NBA Third Team (1989); Nine-time All-Star; One of 50 Greatest Players in NBA History (1996). Parish was a 9 time NBA All-Star, top 10 in the league in FG% for six consecutive seasons, averaged over 10 rebounds per game in EIGHT SEASONS and averaged better than 15 points in NINE seasons. And he’s proven to be a very reliable player playing more games than anyone ever has in the NBA.
Overall the way I look at it, there wouldn't be any way to stop Michael Jordan AND LeBron James while I have two amazing defensive centers in Mourning, David Robinson and off the bench Robert Parish to defend his two best players which is his frontcourt.
Games are not won simply by what player is better than another at any given position. Rather, you have to look at the composition of the entire team. What matchups are involved? How does each team come together as a whole?
KC's team is a collection of amazing players. I'll give him that. In fact, the overall talent level on his team is better than mine. I'll give him that too. But let me ask you this, wasn't the talent level of the 2004 USA Olympic Basketball team far better than that of the Gold Medalists Argentina? Allen Iverson, Stephon Marbury, D-Wade, Boozer, Marion, Amare, Lebron James, and Tim Duncan are a far more talented unit than Manu Ginobili, Carlos Delfino, Andres Nocioni, and Fabricio Oberto. Talent alone doesn't make a team. With that in mind, I went about establishing this All-Era Team. Unlike KC, this team has an identity; a physical defensive team with a bruising half-court offense. It’s not a 2 man show.
As stated in the previous matchup, the players on this team combine for 56 All-Defensive Team Selections and 8 Defensive Player of the Year Awards. Just imagine what kind of team defense all these players could combine to play! The 2004 Pistons were not as talented as the 2004 Lakers, but their strong defense and defined roles lead to their success. Likewise the 2008 Boston Celtics showed that even the best perimeter players in the world (Kobe Bryant and Lebron James) can be turned into incredibly inefficient players if played correctly.
With all that said, let's look at the matchups and some overall team dynamics:
PG: Gary Payton Vs Jason Kidd
Using statistics for a matchup like this is laughable. Of course Kidd as more assists per game; he was NEVER the leading scorer on his team. This is far different than Payton, who was not only expected to distribute, but lead the team in scoring as well. Oh, and that's saying nothing about him being the greatest defensive PG of all-time. GP is also probably the best post-playing PG of all-time as well. He would simply abuse smaller guards constantly. He and Kidd are the same size, so Payton could still use his moves to score almost at will. Kidd meanwhile will have a far harder time penetrating or getting wide open 3's which his offense mostly consists of.
When asked to classify the best players in each position of the late 1990s and early 21st century, NBA coach George Karl said of Payton, "I don't know who else you'd take at point guard. Some say Jason Kidd. Well, every time Gary went nose-to-nose with Kidd, Gary won that matchup."
To show just how great Gary Payton truly was, we need look no further than the 1996 NBA Finals: Midway through the 1996 NBA Finals, Seattle coach George Karl made the decision to assign Payton to play defense as a shooting guard instead of his normal point guard assignment in order to defend Jordan. Though the Bulls won the series, Seattle's (and especially Payton's) defense held Jordan and the Bulls to their lowest offensive output in an NBA finals and "frustrated the best player in the game."
In game 6, which the Bulls would win to capture the Championship, Payton played 47 minutes and Jordan missed 14 of his 19 shots, getting a career Finals low 22 points. By the end of the series, Michael Jordan had been held under 30 points in 5 of the 6 games, including his three lowest-scoring Finals games up to that point (26 in Game 5, 23 in Game 4, 22 in Game 6). Bill Walton, commentating for NBC at the time, said Payton "outplayed" Jordan during the second half of the series, and that Seattle coach George Karl would "rue" the decision to "hide [Payton] from 'the king'" in the early games of the series. During this series, Payton and his Sonics also held Jordan's Bulls to the Bulls' lowest-scoring quarter in the Bulls' NBA finals history. Michael Jordan would never score fewer points in an NBA Finals game than his 22 points in game 6, and would never be held under 30 points more than twice in a Finals series, which the Sonics did five times.
So if Payton could frustrate Michael Jordan and the best team MJ was ever on, he could certainly disrupt Jason Kidd's game enough to throw off KC's entire offense. His 9 straight 1st All-Defensive Team selections and 1996 Defensive Player of the year awards certainly attest to that.
Scottie Pippen Vs Michael Jordan
That's right, I'm putting Pippen on Jordan. Who knows MJ better than Pippen? Who could possibly defend Jordan better than Pippen? Scottie knows all his moves, is taller, longer, and just as quick. The Bulls were so great because MJ and Scottie composed the best defensive wignman combo in history. Pippen made 10 All-Defensive Teams, 8 of them being 1st teams. Jordan never had to play against a defender with the size, skill, and athleticism that Scottie Pippen had. As we saw in the 96 finals, MJ did struggle against Gary Payton. He'd certainly struggle against Scottie Pippen.
Paul Pierce Vs Lebron James
2007 Eastern Conference Semi-Finals Lebron James Stats
Game 1: 12 points .111 FG%
Game 2: 21 points, .250 FG%
Game 3: 21 points, .313 FG%
Game 4: 21 Points, .350 FG%
Game 5: 35 points, .480 FG%
Game 6: 32 points, .391 FG%
Game 7: 45 points, .483 FG%
As you can see, Lebron James did put up numbers, but numbers that were horribly inefficient for a player of his caliber. Paul Pierce did a great job defensively that series while still scoring himself. These two guys can score on each other there’s no doubt, but neither can dominate the other. That is much more of a problem for Lebron James, because he’s KC’s second offensive option. Pierce is my third or fourth, which allows The Truth to focus on defense that much more.
Tim Duncan Vs David Robinson
Robinson was a great player, but he never got a ring until Duncan joined his team. As great as The Admiral was, Duncan was better in every aspect of the game; offensively, defensively, and even as a leader. Tim Duncan simply outclasses David Robinson and is the best Power Forward of all-time.
Shaquille O’Neal Vs Alonzo Mourning
I love Alonzo Mourning. I really do. But in this matchup he too is outclassed. Zo’s best qualities were his tenacity on both offense and defense. Nobody played harder than he did. However he was never a dominant offensive player. He relied on his strength to get him rebounds and 2nd chance opportunities. Those types of things wouldn’t happen against Shaq, who has a MASSIVE size advantage. For most of his career Zo weighed around 250 pounds and was listed at a generous 6’10 iin height. Shaq is 7-1 and weighed over 300 pounds even when he was spry and played for the Magic. Shaq has been the most dominant player anyone has seen since Jordan. Zo’s hustle on offense and defense wouldn’t stack up to Shaq’s pure size and power. He is a force of nature. Not even Hakeem Olajuwon, the greatest defensive big man since Bill Russell, at his best could stop Shaq. In the 95 Finals Shaq scored 26, 33, 28, and 25 points while never shooting lower than 54% and going as high as 64%. And this was Shaq in his THIRD SEASON. I don’t care how many defensive player of the year awards Zo has; he’s undersized. If a prime Hakeem couldn’t stop a young Shaq, than Zo has not chance in hell of even slowing down Shaq at his best. Honestly, neither does David Robinson if KC decided to go that route, as he wasn’t as good a defender as Zo. Shaq was that dominant.
Bench:
Dikembe Mutombo – What can you really say about Dikembe? 1995 Defensive Player of the Year, 1997 Defensive Player of the Year, 1998 Defensive Player of the Year, 2001 Defensive Player of the Year, 3-Time All-Defensive 1st Team, 3 Time All-Defensive 2nd Team, 8-Time All-Star. The man was a defensive FORCE for over a decade. He could guard any big man he was matched up against. He was an unbelievable help defender and shot blocker. Nobody protected the rim like Dikembe.
Dennis Johnson – DJ won the Finals MVP award in 1979, so we know he can come through in the clutch. He also ran the offense for the 84 and 86 NBA Champion Boston Celtic teams, so we now he can run a powerful offense filled with offensive players better than him. Johnson was selected to 9 all-defensive teams, 6 times as a first teamer. At 6’4 he has the size to matchup and hound both PG’s and SG’s. He is the perfect backup PG.
Sidney Moncrief – 1983 Defensive Player of the Year, 1984 Defensive Player of the Year, 4-Time All-Defensive 1st Team, 1 All-Defensive 2nd Team, 5-Time All-Star. The most amazing thing about Sidney Moncrief is that he won his 83 and 84 Defensive player of the year awards while leading his teams in scoring! And these weren’t bad teams either, as Moncrief lead the Bucks to the Eastern Conference Finals in both 83 and 84. At the top of his game, he was an amazing player on both ends of the floor. Michael Jordan had this to say about Moncrief: "When you play against Moncrief, you're in for a night of all-around basketball. He'll hound you everywhere you go, both ends of the court. You just expect it."
Chris Webber – Webber is one of the most underrated and talented players of his generation. As an example, how many of you knew that C-Webb lead the NBA in rebounds per game in 99? Or that in 01 he averaged 27-11-4? Or that he made 5 straight All-NBA Teams from 99-03? When C-Webb was at his best, he was a FAR better player than Shawn Kemp, and just as good as Dirk Nowitzki has ever been if not better. Other than Tim Duncan, his Kings teams were the only threat to the Laker dynasty in the early 2000’s. Webber made everyone around him better with his passing, and he gives this bench a dynamic offensive presence. With C-Webb on the court, this team has the capability of playing a fast break style offense. So just like that this team can switch from giving an opponent a half-court pounding to running it up the floor. A change in pace so dramatic is hard for most teams to pull off, but not this one.
Chris Mullin – With a career 3PT% of .384 and a season best of .451, Mullin is one of the best outside shooters in NBA history. The rest of his game wasn’t too shabby either, as he got selected to the 1992 Dream Team. Mullin’s lethal shooting and overall offensive game would be a tremendous asset when this team needs quick offense or a big outside shot. Mullin also made 5 All-Star teams and 5 All-NBA teams, one being the 1st Team in 1992. He was a superior player to Glen Rice.
Rasheed Wallace – A lot of you may look at this pick and wonder why I’d select Rasheed. Well the answer is simple; Rasheed’s skill set is very unique. 6’11 PF/C’s that shoot over 35% from outside for the majority of their career are rare, especially when they can also score inside and defend. Unlike Dirk, Rasheed was a very good defensive player as he proved on the 2004 NBA Champion Pistons. Rasheed matches up perfectly with Dirk Nowitzki both on offense and defense.
Ron Artest – Artest serves multiple purposes on this team. As a defender there’s really never been anyone like him. His power and tenacity on the perimeter are unmatched, which is why he was the 2004 Defensive Player of the Year. Artest could come into the game and give Lebron James a lot of trouble. Lebron relies on his strength to overpower defenders. Artest is very strong himself, and could hold his ground. We all saw how Stephen Jackson gave Dirk Nowitzki nightmares in the 2007 Playoffs. Dirk struggles with quick strong defenders. Is there any worse matchup for Dirk than Ron Artest? Furthermore, how would a skinny guy like James Worthy, who can’t shoot outside, fair against a defender stronger and just as quick as he is? Artest creates so many matchup problems for KC’s bench it’s not even funny. And on the offensive side of the court, he’s a career .342 3PT shooter, and he’s only getting better. In 07 he shot 36% from downtown, then 38% in 08. In 09 he shot 40% from outside. Artest is lethal both on defense and from deep.
Overall Team Chemistry: It would be impossible to stop both Lebron James & Michael Jordan. Jordan would have a constant rotation of Scottie Pippen, Gary Payton, and Sidney Moncrief guarding him. You don’t think he’d break down a little over 48 minutes facing such fierce defenders? Or that his own defense would start to slack as he exerted so much effort on offense? The same with Lebron James, who would have to constantly deal with either Paul Pierce, Scottie Pippen, or Ron Artest. Oh, and that’s not even mentioning that the big men protecting the rim are Shaq, Tim Duncan, Dikembe Mutombo, and Rasheed Wallace. So even if they get past their perimeter defenders, help from the inside is coming. Then even if they pass it out, this team has so many elite defenders, both starting and on the bench, that they’ll be able to rotate and prevent easy open shots. The defense will never get easier, as every bench player that’s subbed in can play D at the highest level.
Meanwhile, my team will be able to feed Shaq and Tim Duncan all-day. Shaq in his prime was unstoppable, as was Duncan. Even in a bad game both of them shot over 50%, which is far better than Jordan or Lebron. And if KC subscribes to the Hack-a-Shaq strategy, just imagine what that does to his frontcourt. If Mourning or Robinson gets into foul trouble, that means Dirk Nowitzki and Robert Parish are going to have to start playing major minutes. Nowitzki would get abused on defense by Duncan or Shaq and shut down on offense by Artest or Rasheed. Parish is simply outclassed against Duncan or Shaq, and would get shut down by Mutombo.
If KC decides to double Shaq or Duncan, than that opens up Payton, Pierce, Pippen, Artest, Wallace, and Mullin to drain 3’s. All of them are very good outside shooters. This offense can pound you down low, slash to the basket, and rain 3’s; it can do it all.
Furthermore, of what good is KC’s bench? Honestly, how will James Worthy, Vince Carter, and Glen Rice do guarding any of my players? The same with Dirk. Those guys need the ball in their hands to be effective. If Jordan, Lebron, and Robinson are getting most of the shots, how effective will they be? My bench is effective because they can rotate in and play great D. If KC’s bench rotates in and doesn’t get shots, they’re doing nothing but giving up points.
And finally, Mark Jackson as your backup PG? That guy was a role player who had a nice long career. That’s why he has so many assists, not because he was great. He was never elite; his ONE lone all-star appearance proves this. Dennis Johnson uses his size advantage and elite defense to chew him up and spits him out. You better plan on having J-Kidd, Jordan, or Lebron on the floor at all times, because Jackson wouldn’t be able to do a thing against DJ.
So in conclusion, my offensive gameplan is far more efficient and effective than just relying on either Jordan or Lebron to take over. Its proven prime Shaq and Duncan cannot be stopped, and KC doesn’t have the frontcourt depth to play hack-a-shaq. This team is filled with elite defenders that can constantly rotate in and out to stay fresh and apply intense pressure at all times. Almost all of these defenders are also excellent on offense, and the majority of them have great range to create spacing for Shaq and Duncan to work. Pierce, Pippen, and Payton can all get to the hoop and take a last second shot in the clutch. As a result, Jordan and Lebron would need to stay in the game as Worthy, Glen Rice, Vince Carter, and Mark Jackson would NOT get the job done on defense. Over time both MJ and Bron would tire. Their jump shots wouldn’t have the same lift, and their defense would get a little looser. Oh, and what happens if either of them gets into foul trouble?
This is a TEAM. Not just a collection of great players like KC has. This team would not lose.
Great written argument LL33, I agree with you on a lot of aspects. One thing though, even if you put Scottie on Jordan, it's just going to be difficult to even stop him. He has faced all the hardest defenders of his era but in his prime, absolutely no one could stop him. They could maybe slow him but Scottie still can't stop him.
Also, I don't like the Payton slowed down Jordan so he automatically will disrupt Kidd. They played different positions and Kidd is a pass-first player. There is a big difference.
It's not THAT easy to just stop Lebron James and Michael Jordan. And if we factor in identities, Ron Artest for the most part of his career, has been a team cancer.
Also, the Pierce vs. LeBron comparisons from 2007 is weak. It's 2009 and LeBron James has had a historical MVP season. 2 years ago is much different from how much he has grown as a player up til now.
And about the Duncan vs. Dirk strategy. Has Dirk not been getting the better of Duncan these past few years? Winning against the Spurs in 7 games in 2006 and carrying his team to the finals. And also this year, they have been dominating the Spurs.
I also don't buy how weak you made my depth sound in the frontcourt. I have Parish, Dirk, David Robinson, Alonzo Mourning. Those are all very big people and 3 of them are amazing at defense. They wouldn't get dominated by Duncan and Shaq. They would slow them down more than anyone can slow down Lebron and Jordan. I do admit you have the better frontcourt though, do not get me wrong.
Dirk spreads the offense as well so on the offensive end, he can shoot the three so all those double teams on LeBron and double teams on MJ, Dirk (a power forward), Kidd and Glen Rice could hit any open look they get all day. And if they guard Dirk on the perimeter, it opens up the middle for MJ and LeBron in the first place, and you KNOW they can finish any time.
The domination of MJ and LeBron while having great defensive frontcourt players to slow down your frontcourt gives me the advantage in my opinion.
Great written argument LL33, I agree with you on a lot of aspects. One thing though, even if you put Scottie on Jordan, it's just going to be difficult to even stop him. He has faced all the hardest defenders of his era but in his prime, absolutely no one could stop him. They could maybe slow him but Scottie still can't stop him.
Also, I don't like the Payton slowed down Jordan so he automatically will disrupt Kidd. They played different positions and Kidd is a pass-first player. There is a big difference.
You mean pass-first like John Stockton? Want me to post the 96 WCF stats again? If he did it to Jordan and Stockton, he could do it to Kidd, and George Karl testified to that.
It's not about stopping Jordan. I agree, he cannot be stopped. However, he can be made into an inefficient player. Yes he'll get his points, but he'll do it while shooting a horrible percentage. When Payton was guarding him in the last 3 games 96 Finals, Jordan shot .316% in game 5, .500% in game 6, and .263% in game 7. That's not good, especially if he's your #1 scoring option. The same is true of Lebron. He can be made into an inefficient player.
Pippen & Jordan always played together, and along with Payton were the 3 best perimeter defenders of their generation. While Jordan did play against the smaller Payton, he never played against Pippen, who had the length and athleticism to give him a lot more problems.
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It's not THAT easy to just stop Lebron James and Michael Jordan. And if we factor in identities, Ron Artest for the most part of his career, has been a team cancer.
Also, the Pierce vs. LeBron comparisons from 2007 is weak. It's 2009 and LeBron James has had a historical MVP season. 2 years ago is much different from how much he has grown as a player up til now.
You just contradicted yourself here. Artest may have been a team cancer at times, but right now he's a great teammate and has grown up a lot.
Lebron right now is not the same as Lebron over his entire career. Also that was from last year's playoffs, not 2 years ago.
So you can't have it both ways. If you want to use how good Lebron is now as an example of how great he can be then fine, but you can't then go and say Artest is a bad teammate, because right now he isn't.
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And about the Duncan vs. Dirk strategy. Has Dirk not been getting the better of Duncan these past few years? Winning against the Spurs in 7 games in 2006 and carrying his team to the finals. And also this year, they have been dominating the Spurs.
I agree that Dirk can score on Duncan, but Duncan can score on Dirk just as much if not more. Duncan is also a far better rebounder and help defender. Yes, the Mavs beat the Spurs in 06...after losing to them how many times exactly? This year's playoffs don't mean a thing; Duncan is on the downside of his career now and the Spurs don't even have Ginobili. Duncan is a far greater player than Dirk. The titles say it all. However, I spoke about Mourning primarily because that's who you have starting and presumably playing most of the game. If I want to stop Dirk I'm using Artest or Wallace on him.
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I also don't buy how weak you made my depth sound in the frontcourt. I have Parish, Dirk, David Robinson, Alonzo Mourning. Those are all very big people and 3 of them are amazing at defense. They wouldn't get dominated by Duncan and Shaq. They would slow them down more than anyone can slow down Lebron and Jordan. I do admit you have the better frontcourt though, do not get me wrong.
Yes they would get dominated. You didn't seem to get the point about the 95 Finals. A young Shaq put up big numbers while shooting a great % on Hakeem Olajuwon. Hakeem in 95 was the best defensive center since the 70's, and may be the best center ever bar none. A prime Shaq cannot be stopped or even slowed by Robinson, Parish, Dirk, or Zo. He's that dominant. That's the difference between big men and perimeter players; dominant big men are much more efficient when facing great defenses.
As I showed, Jordan and Lebron had games shooting .111 and .313 against Pierce and Payton. A pre-prime Shaq's WORST game against Hakeem Olajuwon, who is far superior to any big man on your team, was over 54%, and at his best was 65%. Lebron and Jordan can be slowed and games with poor shooting percentages prove it. A prime Shaq cannot be slowed, at least not by anyone on your roster.
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Dirk spreads the offense as well so on the offensive end, he can shoot the three so all those double teams on LeBron and double teams on MJ, Dirk (a power forward), Kidd and Glen Rice could hit any open look they get all day. And if they guard Dirk on the perimeter, it opens up the middle for MJ and LeBron in the first place, and you KNOW they can finish any time.
I put Ron Artest on Dirk and he isn't doing a damn thing just like in the 07 playoffs. Sheed slows him down considerably as well.
Again, I'm not doubling Lebron and MJ per say. The defensive players I have are good enough to slow them down alone as well as rotate to protect the rim and rotate to cover the open shooters. Obviously there will be some breakdowns occaisionally, but far more often MJ or Bron is just going to miss a shot. After all, .400% is less than half the time. Compared to Duncan and Shaq who both shoot well over 50%, that's not going to get it done.
Also, you plan on playing Dirk and Glen Rice for major minutes? They're both going to get scorched on D. If Dirk plays a lot Duncan will shoot over 70%.
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The domination of MJ and LeBron while having great defensive frontcourt players to slow down your frontcourt gives me the advantage in my opinion.
Your defensive frontcourt isn't great, it's good, but not great. And even if it was great, that's still not going to get it done against Shaq. If Hakeem couldn't stop him, then Robinson or Zo won't either. If Dirk is playing major minutes, then Duncan will dominate him inside as well.
Perimeter players don't dominate as efficiently as big men. It's a fact. Basketball is a big man's game. Perimeter players like Lebron and MJ can and have been slowed on many occasions. In his prime Shaq could not be stopped. That's why he won 4 titles and brought 3 different franchises to the Finals. Duncan has won 4 titles as well because he is also a dominant big man.
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Last edited by Living_Legend33; 04-27-2009 at 01:07 AM..
It's different. Artest has had a history of ruining teams. LeBron has just been showing improvement exponentially every year. It's weak to keep using the "Player A" couldn't guard "Player B" so "Players C-Z" can't guard Player B.
Again, using Paul Pierce's defense against LeBron one year ago is different from Paul Pierce on LeBron this year. Here's the 2009 stats when Boston plays Cleveland:
LeBron James - 28 ppg (48 FG%), 6 rpg, 6 apg
Paul Pierce - 20ppg (39 FG% ), 3.5 rpg, 4 apg
Clearly LeBron James dominated Paul Pierce, hence LBJ is on the best team in the NBA (record wise). There's not even a debate anymore, LBJ has become pretty un-guardable as we have all seen this year.
If you're putting in Artest when I have Dirk in the game, then I'm leaving Dirk in all game. Artest would struggle so badly on offense it's not even funny and I don't see Dirk getting "torched" on defense against Artest. Dirk is easily better than Ron Artest.
Also, if you use the example of Payton slowing down Jordan, then who is going to guard Kidd? You already said you're putting Pippen on Jordan, so using the Payton slowing down Jordan argument is void. He can't guard both Jordan and Kidd and guarding each of these guys requires a completely different strategy.
It's different. Artest has had a history of ruining teams. LeBron has just been showing improvement exponentially every year. It's weak to keep using the "Player A" couldn't guard "Player B" so "Players C-Z" can't guard Player B.
Artest ruined Indiana that one season. He was great in Sacramento and he's been great in Houston. He doesn't have a "history" of ruining teams. It was one incident that tore that team apart. Nothing more or less.
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Again, using Paul Pierce's defense against LeBron one year ago is different from Paul Pierce on LeBron this year. Here's the 2009 stats when Boston plays Cleveland:
LeBron James - 28 ppg (48 FG%), 6 rpg, 6 apg
Paul Pierce - 20ppg (39 FG% ), 3.5 rpg, 4 apg
Clearly LeBron James dominated Paul Pierce, hence LBJ is on the best team in the NBA (record wise). There's not even a debate anymore, LBJ has become pretty un-guardable as we have all seen this year.
We decided to rate each player on their overall career, not just on one year. Yes Lebron is better now than he was a few years ago, but we have to take all those seasons into account too, which is why he went at the end of the 2nd round and not in the first. Lebron was not nearly as good a few years ago as he is this year, so on the average he's about as good as he was in 07 or 08, and that's being generous.
Lebron's stats against the Celtics this year are misleading. Half those games were without Garnett, one of which was a blowout in a meaningless game.
Btw, opening night this year when Boston played Cleveland:
Lebron: 9-21, 0-4 3PT, 22 Pts - Loss
Pierce: 10-19. 2-4 3PT, 27 Pts - Win
March 6th without Garnett in Boston
Lebron: 5-15, 2-5 3PT, 21 Pts - Loss
Pierce: 11-22, 3-6 3PT, 29 Pts - Win
Lebron clearly isn't unstoppable even now. Yes, I'll freely admit Pierce was badly outplayed in Cleveland in January, but that game in April was meaningless as the entire Celtics team was undermanned and outgunned.
So in the 3 meaningful games both teams played, Pierce outplayed Lebron twice and got his team two wins.
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If you're putting in Artest when I have Dirk in the game, then I'm leaving Dirk in all game. Artest would struggle so badly on offense it's not even funny and I don't see Dirk getting "torched" on defense against Artest. Dirk is easily better than Ron Artest.
How exactly would Artest struggle on offense? Dirk is going to stop Artest from driving? I guess I missed the game where he became a passable perimeter defender. If he does cover Ron, then he's going to play away from the hoop since Artest is setting up on the 3 point line, which hurts your rebounding and interior defense. Dirk can't guard Artest, but Artest can definitely guard Dirk.
You're also forgetting I can rotate Sheed into the game to play Dirk as well. Dirk isn't going to play Sheed very well either.
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Also, if you use the example of Payton slowing down Jordan, then who is going to guard Kidd? You already said you're putting Pippen on Jordan, so using the Payton slowing down Jordan argument is void. He can't guard both Jordan and Kidd and guarding each of these guys requires a completely different strategy.
The argument is not void. Maybe I'll sub in Moncrief or Dennis Johnson to have them take on Kidd. Both of them could certainly make life difficult for him. I can rotate plenty of perimeter defenders on all your best players. You however have no defense off the bench outside of Parish, so when your starters go out the game becomes much easier for my team to score, and everyone on my team can score. Conversely, only your starters can play great defense.
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Last edited by Living_Legend33; 04-27-2009 at 01:21 PM..
Pierce will get torched by Jordan, although maybe Payton would guard Jordan, leaving Pierce on Kidd
Pierce isn't guarding Jordan. Here's how the defensive assignments break down. The higher the rating the more time they'll spend on D against this player.
Kidd - 1. Payton 2. Sidney Moncrief 3. Dennis Johnson
Jordan - 1. Pippen 2. Payton 3. Moncrief
Lebron James - 1. Paul Pierce 2. Scottie Pippen 3. Ron Artest
Two insane teams. I am going with... KC. I am choosing him because not only does he have better SG/SF, he has two hall of fame big men that could match up with Duncan and Shaq.
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FREE NOSE (Keep that cocksucker John Calipari banned)
I just think his team has an insane amount of control in the paint. As great as MJ and LeBron are, I just can't see them consistently driving to the hole with all those great perimeter defenders and even then they have to deal with that incredible frontcourt rotation.
Wow, great matchup here. I'm going with LL33 though.
- As much as a great duo Jordan/LeBron looks on paper, LeBron is indeed stoppable. He still scores his points, but sometimes he doesn't do it with efficiency. With Pierce on him, we've seen what it can turn out like.
- LL33's has different types of bigs. He's got a dominate player in Shaq to handle it inside, someone who can roam around the paint in Duncan, Rasheed who can play in the perimeter and Chris Webber who can roam around the middle of the paint.
- He's got two great man-to-man defenders in Pippen & Artest. The argument that Artest is a cancer is true, but put him around the right guys and he can change. He's been fine ever since coming to Houston anyways.
LL33
I still don't understand why people do this thing without getting a back-up for every position. KC doesn't have a back-up PG. LL33 also has an unbelievable front-court. Paul Pierce is the weakest of the 10 starters, but it's not enough to take away the aweness that is in LL33's roster. Both teams are great defensively, but I'd give the slight advantage to LL33 here as well.
VOTE: NBA ALL ERA CHAMPIONSHIP
G.Vasquez - L. James - 
L. Kleiza - A. Nivins - 
B. Mullens
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